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10.2.5
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Massive downvotes
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Post by
SpakyTwo
I have noticed that is appears that someone is going through and just downvoting a lot of posts with good information without any feedback. My guide to the Kurenai took me quite a while (even with the help from wowwiki) to put together and it's been downvoted with out any reason as to why.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
http://www.wowhead.com/faction=978#comments:id=1883635
Okay, I'm removing the link because, while discussion on comment ratings is fine in the abstract, it would not be good for a precedence to be set whereby one can post in Wowhead Feedback to get some upvotes. I agree with Zuji that it's a fine comment and I understand your frustration but this cannot become a way for people to garner attention for their comments.
Post by
Nulgar
Well I'd say in your case it could be because the comment is basically an ordered list of the contents of the
Quests
tab - and the quest chain isn't that complicated - do some quests in Zangar Marsh, then head to Nagrand.
I didn't check other comments extensively (on my smartphone atm) but those may have provided similar information already.
Post by
asakawa
One or two downvotes is not "massive downvotes". We closely watch comment ratings to ensure that nobody is rating comments faster than they can read them and that nobody is targeting specific users. If someone has read your comment and made a judgement based solely on its content then that's a legitimate vote. There's been one upvote and two downvotes so far and there's a good chance that others could find it useful and upvote in future even if that's a relatively slow process on a less popular page like that one.
Basically, don't worry about single votes. If you had got +30 then you wouldn't be making a thread here after getting a downvote. Also,
do not
make meta comments asking why things have been downvoted. That is immediately off topic for the comment page and consistently causes more issues.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Zuji
Well, his post certainly beats any
other
post on that page by miles. The information appears to be factually correct, ordered and complete with reputation gains (which the quest tab lacks). If we started downvoting everything here which might be gathered with effort from other sources there would not be much left.
I upvoted the post and would like to invite at least one other person to do so as well because it really deserves to be the top comment there.
Post by
Nulgar
with reputation gains (which the quest tab lacks)
Sorry, but I have to mention that's
incorrect
.
Post by
SpakyTwo
I wasn't actually trying to get up votes for my comment. I just noticed that ALL of the comments on the page I was reading were all -1. I may have been on the second page.
One day I was at 38:44 the next I was at 38:38 and noticed that someone had downvoted it. I realize that some of the rep gains might be slightly off, but with all of the extra rep you get from guilds, human,etc, it can challenging to get the rep gains completely correct. I tried to make sure they were correct from my experience. Level 5 guild as a human.
It seemed like a lot of comments were getting voted down. I just picked that one as I don't see why anyone would down vote it. I also delete comments that seem out of date or no longer relevant. I try to post current and factual information as that helps everyone.
Post by
Balgair
Some people do like to mass downvote, it seems; a couple of days back I noticed all strategies except one for
Yu'la, Broodling of Yu'lon
were on -1, and now a lot are lower although a couple have recovered to above 0 again.
For something like pet battles it seems silly to mass downvote strategies without trying them (can't speak for the other strategies, but as I have successfully used mine twice, the downvoters on it presumably didn't try it), as there's so many different combinations of pets which people own. So Mr Bigglesworth can solo that one, great - those of us who don't own him yet would like to see other strategies too!
Post by
asakawa
I wasn't actually trying to get up votes for my comment
I understand, we just can't allow a situation to develop where people do that. Simply nipping in the bud.
Some people do like to mass downvote, it seems; a couple of days back I noticed all strategies except one for
Yu'la, Broodling of Yu'lon
were on -1, and now a lot are lower although a couple have recovered to above 0 again.
All the -1 rated comments on that page have received multiple votes that result in an
overall
score of -1. It may be simplest for users to perceive that several comments on a page have all been downvoted once by a single blithe or outright malicious user but that simply isn't the case. And, if anyone does do that faster than they could reasonably read and make a judgement about each one, we (moderators) are made aware of it and deal with that situation sternly.
We get a thread like this every couple of months and it's always the same story. SparkyTwo, your attitude to making and maintaining comments sounds excellent, I don't want you to be discouraged and I'm certainly sympathetic to a situation where you put a lot of effort into a comment and the first vote you get is a downvote. However, there really is not a systemic issue here, there's just the democracy of votes that sometimes (often briefly) disagrees with one's own assessment. If you suspect abusive voting to have taken place then we welcome reports to where it will be thoroughly investigated. However, the systems we have in place to find abusive voters is fairly strong.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Tygerlilly
I agree 100% with Sparky.
Most of the downvotes are from people who cannot benefit from the tip/guide/strategy themselves. I've seen incredibly helpful posts with multiple downvotes - makes no sense at all.
Voting (especially downvoting) is completely arbitrary and non-objective, that alone makes the votes meaningless. Downvoters don't even have to give a reason for their downvote. They don't help anyone, and sometimes the best posts end up hidden due to out-of-control downvotes.
My last comment was downvoted immediately after I posted it. I spent 30 minutes writing it and much more than that actually running through the strategy to make sure it worked. When I make an effort to do something helpful and all I get is negative reinforcement, I start to question why I even bother trying to help in the first place.
Post by
Adamsm
If you are seeking positive reinforcement for assisting, you are doing something wrong. Being helpful should be it's own reward after all, not a reason to praise someone.
Post by
asakawa
I Locked the other thread as it isn't good to have the same discussion spanning multiple threads.
I also deleted your comment reply to your recent comment which was off-topic for the DB page and inflammatory. that is not the kind of thing that comment threads are for.
It's not entirely surprising that you agree with the OP here since you made
an essentially identical thread
a few months ago.
So firstly, let me reiterate the main response this thread (and yours from March) which is that, no there is not a systemic issue with arbitrary, mass downvoting. That kind of voting is what we call "abusive voting" and we find and deal with it daily.
Your recent complaint is to do with the system as a whole but you're being entirely presumptuous when you write off the opinions of other users as arbitrary. As I said in the other (now locked) thread, the votes ARE subjective and that is by design and working correctly. And this is the main point here; A comment's score is not any single vote. No one user gets to decide the score a comment gets.
The individual users that downvoted your comment are all active members of the community. None of them also had a comment on that page (it's not rivalry) and none of them show any history of or propensity for abusive voting.
I am extremely sympathetic that you put effort into a comment which several others did not think useful but you must accept that several people did read your comment and make that judgement based on its content. It was not arbitrary.
Post by
Izichial
There are systems in place to prevent targeted / systematic downvoting. If you think someone is doing it anyway you can still contact feedback and have it looked into by a staff member. I'm going to sound harsh here, but either you trust the systems in which case you need to realise that downvotes aren't automatically malicious because
you
thought you made a good comment - people just disagree with you, or you don't trust the systems in which case I'm having difficulty seeing why you bother posting at all. If you're going to assume people are out to get you the moment they don't agree with you, you need to think over the whole internet thing.
In your case, Tigerlilly, I had a look through your comments (and no, I did not downvote anything) and quite a lot of them are just "thank you" / "congratulations", anecdotal comments about drop rates (which is superfluous not to mention potentially misleading if you don't have a sufficient sample size) and a bunch of "this is a great idea!" or rants about commenting etiquette. It's a comment section, not your personal blog. People looking up something on Wowhead are usually after accurate, non-speculative and relevant information pertaining to what they actually looked up - if your comment does not provide any of these things people will consider it to be cluttering up the comment page needlessly and downvote it.
Even if you did provide something relevant there are still plenty of legitimate reasons why it could have been downvoted. The information was already available, the tips / tactic / method was correct but unclearly described, you put it as a comment reply to an unrelated existing comment, it was an answer to a question people found to be inappropriate for the comment page in itself or people simply disagreed with a subjective statement you made.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
The downvote system really is a good general indicator of what types of comments are and are not appreciated in the database. Generally, comments that a poster might think belong there (but the user-base doesn't) are downvoted because they fit one or more of the following criteria:
- People think they're Irrelevant. Often people will muse about similar items or NPC's, but not the actual entry for the page. Or, they'll make a joke or reference that is very obscure and no one knows how they are related.
- Relevant, but information is part of the listing already- All items have tables of what containers and mobs drop the items, or what quests or professions they come from. They will say in the information whether they're 1-handed or two-handed, if there's a class restriction, etc. When a post is repeating what the entry already says, it's not bringing any new information and many users consider it a wasted post and down vote it.
- Relevant, but anecdotal/non-informational- When someone posts a story about when they got an item or tamed a pet that has nothing to do with strategy, or posts "yay I got it!," or discusses that they don't like blizzard's handling for XYZ reasons, many people would consider that non-useful, even if it is related, and downvote it. If a joke is particularly funny, it may be well received, but most of the time non-useful posts are pushed down.
- Speculation- When someone speculates about something in the comments, many people will downvote it because it's unfounded and could lead to confusion over whether it's fact or not. This is especially true if the supposition isn't well supported with blue posts or theorycrafting.
- Meta-commenting- commenting on downvoting, on other people's comments, etc. is derailing and has no place in the database. Telling people "Sorry y'all got your panties in a wad over nothing, (taken from an actual post)" is not only irrelevant, but totally inappropriate. Those comments will usually be downvoted if not reported for outright deletion.
- Someone else said it first- When a comment is made that is nearly the same informationally as an older highly rated comments, people will downvote the new one because it is seen as unneeded, and copycat-ish.
- Argumentative- If your comment is relevant and informational, but the tone is aggressive or nasty to other posters, it will be downvoted.
- Poorly written- If a post is misspelled, has no punctuation, uses poorly constructed sentences, or otherwise is hard to read, it will likely be downvoted or removed for those reasons.
- Out-dated- A comment that was correct when it is posted might become obsolete later on, as patches come out, and be downvoted once it is no longer relevant.
- You're just wrong- I have had people who were so sure that they were right about something they commented on, that they reported the people who disagreed with them for trolling, when the thing they stated was completely incorrect (per my experience and the information on the page). It's easy to get a bad piece of information, or misunderstand an explanation, and then make an incorrect post in the database.
When one or more of your comments are getting large numbers of downvotes, that's an indication that there is something wrong with those comments, and not the system of downvoting. If people want to avoid it with future comments, they should see what the common thread is between the poorly received comments, and try to avoid comments that are of the same type in the future.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
Post by
Tygerlilly
Late, but necessary reply to correct some mistatements.
In your case, Tigerlilly, I had a look through your comments (and no, I did not downvote anything) and quite a lot of them are just "thank you" / "congratulations", anecdotal comments about drop rates (which is superfluous not to mention potentially misleading if you don't have a sufficient sample size) and a bunch of "this is a great idea!" or rants about commenting etiquette.
These are comment replies to people I felt left helpful information. I didn't realize positive reinforcement was frowned upon. And I did not see one comment reply of mine that was just a 'thank you' or 'congratulations' - so your response is a bit misleading. As for the rants - yep - when I post a factual comment with a link to back up my statement and someone downvotes because they can, not because it is actually unhelpful it is very annoying, so best thing for me to do is not post at all, even if it could possibly help someone.
I do not understand why you don't require downvoters to provide a reason for their downvote, but you can be darn sure if they had to substantiate their vote with a 15 character minimum response you would see a drastic reduction in downvotes.
People looking up something on Wowhead are usually after accurate, non-speculative and relevant information pertaining to what they actually looked up - if your comment does not provide any of these things people will consider it to be cluttering up the comment page needlessly and downvote it.OK - so if one goes by upvotes, these are considered helpful comments:
'MY DARLING LITTLE KOVI-WOVI, I LOVE YOU.' 10 upvotes;
'I hope he doesn't make the same sounds as he does on his escort quest.' 4 upvotes;
(
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=148061#comments
)
'Shoryuken!' 2 upvotes;
'I'm assuming this refers to their knuckles being as hard as iron, because real Street Fighters don't use weapons (nor drugs).' 12 upvotes
(
http://www.wowhead.com/item=88747#comments
)
no there is not a systemic issue with arbitrary, mass downvoting.Look - I think Wowhead is a great resource, the best in fact, but y'all got some blinders on when it comes to the voting system. I'm sure you are tired of hearing me gripe so these are my last words on this subject.
Post by
asakawa
no there is not a systemic issue with arbitrary, mass downvoting.Look - I think Wowhead is a great resource, the best in fact, but y'all got some blinders on when it comes to the voting system. I'm sure you are tired of hearing me gripe so these are my last words on this subject.
No, we have systems in place to see when it does happen and deal with it. Consequently we know that it doesn't happen often and on the rare occasions when it does, we handle it.
We can see exactly how big an issue this is and I really think it is you that can't detach emotionally from this and see that it's okay (working as intended for the site) for some people not to think your comments are that great.
BTW, I removed a couple of comment-reply rants about downvotes. Those are not appropriate and I must ask you, in no uncertain terms, not to post things like that again. As ever, if you think there is foul play involved in comment votes then report it to and we can look into it. Otherwise, comment threads are
not
the place to get upset about votes.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Tygerlilly
No more criticism but I do want to point out the four examples I quoted were not helpful, informative, relevant or accurate - yet they received a combined total of 28 upvotes. So it's not just downvoting that is random, upvoting is random as well. This is why (to me, anyway) the number of up or down votes a comment receives does not add value to the content of the website - it detracts.
you must accept that several people did read your comment and make that judgement based on its content.This is where you and I (and some of the of the other posters in this thread) differ. The examples I posted above indicate that relevance of content isn't even a factor when it comes to upvoting or downvoting.
I honestly feel bad for people who go to great lengths to post informative, relevant detailed information and then question why they almost immediately receive downvotes. I suppose some people can brush that off, but I empathize with those that can't - that's the price one pays for being emotionally attached.
Post by
asakawa
The examples I posted above indicate that relevance of content
isn't even a factor
when it comes to upvoting or downvoting.
It isn't the
only
factor. People upvoting something they find funny, for example, is "working as intended".
If you can accept that people aren't literally just clicking arrows at random while reading through a comments page then you must accept that comment ratings represent a broadly democratic view of what other users have appreciated. Now, you may feel that what you appreciate differs so wildly from the general userbase that those ratings are useless for you. That's perfectly fine, and in that case I suggest you sort comments by date instead of rating, but not being perfectly tailored to your views does not mean that the system is broken or that it's also not useful for the vast majority of other users.
Post by
rahael
I do think that voting is biased by the first vote cast on a comment. I posted two similar comments on different Hearthstone achievements, and one was upvoted while the other was downvoted. I personally don't think that there's any difference in the usefulness of the comments, but once something has a negative rating then subsequent users tend to continue to downvote.
I don't take the negative votes personally at all, but I definitely wouldn't say that there aren't biases in the current rating system.
Post by
asakawa
Rating systems are used throughout the internet to help sites with large amounts of user-created content present users with a way to find the best content quickly and easily. I think that the possibility that current rating influences subsequent votes is really just a potential eccentricity of the best (if not perfect) system. Practical suggestions for improvements to the system are always welcome.
Post by
Nooska
I agree with almost all of the stuff asakawa says above, I just want to throw in a note;
Democracy is not a very good way of determining whats useful; too many people think too many things are important, so you get a biased result towards the lowest common denominator.
This is true in all things where you gather lots of ((semi-)randomly selected opinions) - polling insitutes know this - in elective polls it doesn'tmatter, since the x they place on election day is equally (un)informed as the one they place in the poll, but in other qualitative pollings there are checks and balances to insure that the reflected opinions are informed in regards to choice (do you buy food based on Criterai X; next question: How much do you know about criteria X).
The voting system is what it is, but it is indeed not a useful tool for highlighting the "good information" or the "good comments", it simply highlights comments chosen by the community (semi-)randomly - and it does indeed have a bias in regards to oft-visited pages with loads of comments, the new get buried by default, and the "highly regarded" get promoted by default.
Having useful information in your comment helps in regards to getting upvotes, but its much the same as being a politician in an election - you may be saying useful stuff, but if you aren't getting any exposure it doesn't help, and if the people that hear you disagree, then it doesn't help that a lot of other people would agree.
I don't have a solution (I do have som ideas, but a lot of them would be work intensive, and only "possibly" help, so I won't be sharing them on the forum (nor unsolicited))
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