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Why are forsaken paladins always regarded as impossible?
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Post by
Skullhawk13
Serious question, I've found a couple of ways they could work without butchering the lore, and have begun to question why the topic wasn't at least properly addressed.
1.Paladins were originally just taking the idea of a human priest and saying. "You know, maybe we should have plate armor for when the horde comes, instead of a frilly robe, what'cha think?"
So you could take the idea of a priest of the shadow, put him in plate, bam forsaken paladin, and if you say "but paladins are of the light" Sunwalkers are druids by lore, yet are paladins by gameplay.
2. The light may hurt the forsaken, but it's fully possible to wield it as one.
Sir Zeliek of the four horsemen from naxxramas, he was undeniably undead, and yet still was forced to use the light against his will, If the light will answer the call of the lich king, and while this is justified that his faith was so strong, it wasn't his faith calling the light, it was the will of the lich king.
There is nothing to suggest that a forsaken can't become a martyr and endure the endless pain of being one with the light, fighting as a force of justice before burning out like a star, being in my opinion at least, a hero unparalleled by any alliance or indeed other horde paladin.
3. Even if we ignore these points, the forsaken are the logical choice if blizzard wants to expand which races can be paladin for the horde, and thus they will figure out a way to shoe horn it in in a more proper lore shattering way we've come to know and love from Blizzard.
Post by
Adamsm
I'd rather see a Night Elf version of the Paladins long before the Forsaken get one; especially as the Priestess of Elune do have heavy armour.
Beyond that: This is another of the dead horse topics, and has been discussed multiple times.
Post by
oneforthemoney
A reason still wouldn't be out of line, if only for Skullhawk's benefit.
The Light is very painful for the undead. Forsaken attempting to wield it on a regular basis would very quickly destroy themselves, if not go insane from the constant pain they'd be under. Sir Zeliek is more an exception to the rule. His faith was so strong that he could still call on the Light, but recall that he was of the Lich King's elite forces. The frequency that he would actually be called forth and forced to use said spells were very, very rare. Hence why he could continue to do so.
Not only that, but Sir Zeliek was not exactly all there if you noticed. He was in a constant desire for the release of death and rebellion against his undeath, one that even the Lich King couldn't conquer. He could just manipulate his body, unlike say Highlord Morgraine who was dedicated to the Lich King prior to the whole Light's Hope fiasco. And most Forsaken can't call on the Light at all, seeing it as having turned on them. In the case of paladins who only wield the Light, you would have an exceedingly small pool of potential recruits. This is why Leonid Barthalomew is just a warrior, even though he is a high ranking crusader in the Argent Dawn.
I hope that helps.
Post by
Adamsm
There's also the fact that Zeliek's mind was his own, but his body served the Lich King; that's why he was always screaming at people to run away, because he couldn't control himself and keep himself from hurting them.
I also don't think Zeliek was in pain like the other Undead are suppose to be when using the Light; because it wasn't actually him using it.
Post by
Nulgar
I'd say
Troll paladins
are much more likely than Forsaken ones.
Post by
Atik
There is Forsaken Paladin called
Leonid Barthalomew the Revered
who is also member of the Argent Dawn.
Pretty sure he's a warrior actually. I don't recall him ever using the Light.
As for the topic at hand.
Paladins were immune to being raised by the original Plague of Undeath (unless that was retconned while I wasn't looking) So, a Forsaken (being that they were raised in the Third War) would need to have become a Paladin post-death.
There are Forsaken who can wield the Light, but it comes at the cost of great pain to them. Beyond proving their faith or something to that effect, there's also little reason for them to swing it around, being that it only provides ineffective healing to their fellow Forsaken. (The Light doesn't actually heal them, but cauterizes the wounds shut so they can be worried about later.)
So, theoretically, a Forsaken Paladin could happen. Especially if they were some sort of Masochist (a former devout follower of the Light who punishes himself for becoming undead?) But, at best, it would be "Awesome, but impractical"
Oh, and the fact that their fellow Forsaken would absolutely despise them for their choice to not embrace undeath.
Post by
Atik
Yes, Wowpedia calls him a Paladin.
But, in terms of game mechanics, I don't recall ever seeing him use any Paladin-esque spells. (Even during the final Death Knight quest, he runs around just smacking people with his sword)
Post by
Adamsm
Just because they call him a Paladin doesn't mean he is one; as you never see him using the Light offensively or defensively, it's entirely possible he lost it after being revived as a Forsaken.
Post by
Phoenixgold
Just because they call him a Paladin doesn't mean he is one; as you never see him using the Light offensively or defensively, it's entirely possible he lost it after being revived as a Forsaken.
Agreed, that is a possibility.
Also note that the only claim of his paladinhood, which is on WoWwiki, says:
paladin quest giver located at Light's Hope Chapel
There is no lore evidence in any quest text or out-of-game sources to support the claim that he's a paladin, and no combat evidence of his abilities having any basis in the Light. Knight? Perhaps, as not all knights are paladins. But Paladin? Likely not. Not at anymore, anyway.
Post by
jcf190
Classes are a profession, not a birthright. You can't use lore to explain away any race/class combination.
Post by
Adamsm
Classes are a profession, not a birthright. You can't use lore to explain away any race/class combination.
You kinda of can: Pandarens don't have warlocks or druids because they haven't been exposed to Fel or the teachings of the Ancients. As Ironbrow says when you walk up to Stormwind Keep, they don't know what the Light is and they have no version of an armoured priest, so there goes Paladins.
Pretty much all of the races have reasons why they cannot be a specific class.
Post by
jcf190
That doesn't mean they
can't
be those classes. That's what I'm saying. You can easily create a simple story to justify those combinations, just like they did with tauren priests/paladins, goblin shaman and worgen druids.
Post by
Adamsm
Doesn't mean it should be done though. What it comes down to is that some classes do not fit the races, such as Warlocks for Tauren, Draenei and now Pandarens, or Paladins for the Forsaken.
Post by
jcf190
Oh, I agree. I was disappointed that the Sunwalker's lore wasn't fleshed out a bit more. The same with the Gilnean druids, though it does leave us some room to create stories of our own (in terms of RP).
Post by
Behelich
To elaborate; under unique circumstances, any race can be most any class. However, such individuals will never be numerous enough to warrant opening that class for that race.
Case in point: the death knights of Acherus number in hundreds - and that is both much fewer than pretty much any other class in any given race (excepting maybe monks for non-pandaren) and a
lot
more than all tauren rogues, pandaren warlocks and forsaken paladins put together.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh, I agree. I was disappointed that the Sunwalker's lore wasn't fleshed out a bit more. The same with the Gilnean druids, though it does leave us some room to create stories of our own (in terms of RP).
Eh...the comic explained pretty much everything in regards to the Gilnean Druids, and I believe as you do quests in Pandaria, the Sunwalker dude does explain more doesn't he? I haven't actually had a chance to level a Horde through the 85-90 zones yet.
Post by
jcf190
We're only given bits and pieces of the Gilean druids story (before the current state of things). It's implied that they were hunted to near extinction in the distant past and never fully explained why they came out of hiding, other than to help save Gilneas. It's suggested that they came out of the woods to help the farmland because it's not uncommon for farmers to slash and burn forest in search of arable land.
Dezco doesn't say much, other than An'she gave his tribe visions of Pandaria, which they followed (leading to almost the entire tribe being killed, but whatevsies...). Dezco is one big ball of ill-fortune. There's some good tid-bits in the latest short story in which he's featured, pertaining to some of the rituals involved in being a Sunwalker.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/destination-pandaria/faction-stories/bleeding-sun/1
Post by
Adamsm
We're only given bits and pieces of the Gilean druids story (before the current state of things). It's implied that they were hunted to near extinction in the distant past and never fully explained why they came out of hiding, other than to help save Gilneas. It's suggested that they came out of the woods to help the farmland because it's not uncommon for farmers to slash and burn forest in search of arable land.Not just implied; the Alpha Ralaar had attempted to transform all of the Night Elves into Worgens after gaining control of the Pack Form, which is how they were all banished into the Dream until Arugal stumbled upon them and began to summon them out from their prison. The Night Elves had realized what was happening and followed them, which is what led to the Worgen form being controlled rather then just being a savage beast.
Pretty much everything was explained in Curse of the Worgen
.
Post by
jcf190
We're only given bits and pieces of the Gilean druids story (before the current state of things). It's implied that they were hunted to near extinction in the distant past and never fully explained why they came out of hiding, other than to help save Gilneas. It's suggested that they came out of the woods to help the farmland because it's not uncommon for farmers to slash and burn forest in search of arable land.Not just implied; the Alpha Ralaar had attempted to transform all of the Night Elves into Worgens after gaining control of the Pack Form, which is how they were all banished into the Dream until Arugal stumbled upon them and began to summon them out from their prison. The Night Elves had realized what was happening and followed them, which is what led to the Worgen form being controlled rather then just being a savage beast.
Pretty much everything was explained in Curse of the Worgen
.
No, no. I'm talking about pre-Cataclysm/Worgen stuff. The origins of the Harvest Order. I should have said "witches" instead of druids methinks, since that's what most tend to call them.
Post by
Adamsm
Ah okay; yeah the Harvest Witches were the ones who used Nature abilities there, but honestly, I think they just picked a random term to use before they officially became the druids.
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