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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
4dehorde
Lordaeron, once a proud kingdom, the jewel of the Alliance, fell long ago. Its people all but completely decimated by the Scourge. But thanks to a series of events a large number of the Lordaeron Scourge regained their free will and rallied behind the leadership of Sylvanas Windrunner. Dubbing her new people the Forsaken, Sylvanas claimed the ruined Capital City and ever since the Forsaken have stood their ground against the zealous Scarlet Crusade and incursions from the Alliance, who claim Lordaeron is still their land. Recently the Forsaken have gone on the offensive, striking back. The Scarlet Crusade is all but destroyed, and several Alliance invasions have been repelled. I am curious as to what people's thoughts are on the future of this land.
Personally I feel Lordaeron is Forsaken territory now, and this is a non-biased view. I feel the Alliance is unreasonable to claim Lordaeron is still their land, seeing as how most of the humans who want to "reclaim" Lordaeron are from Stormwind and surrounding lands. The Forsaken are almost entirely Lordaeronian, and therefore I feel they have more of a right to Lordaeron than foreigners. As Sylvanas herself said, "The people who called this land their home in life, do so in death as well."
Post by
Sparkbolt
cool story brah. but what's the point of this? You seemed to have given yourself a satisfactory answer to any question you might have had.
Post by
4dehorde
I am curious as to what other people's opinions are about the subject. I know a lot of people would like it if the Alliance reclaimed Lordaeron. I want to hear their reasons. I welcome any thoughts and opinions.
Post by
Behelich
Removed(##RESPBREAK##)2060##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##There is no need to preemptively derail the thread. You can simply not participate.
Removed Skreeran's reply as it is no longer in context after this moderation.
Post by
Lordplatypus
The forsaken are wrong by so many ways.
First off, They are
not
the same as the people they once were, no matter what they claim.
Their souls are incomplete, Lordaeron belongs to it's people, not the dead facsimiles who still cling to what they lost.
Removed(##RESPBREAK##)2060##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##
Post by
Rankkor
The forsaken are wrong by so many ways.
So is the alliance. Funny how that works doesn't it?
First off, They are
not
the same as the people they once were
Neither are the few survivors who left. They've changed by living in a different country for well over 2 decades now.
Their souls are incomplete
And this has anything to do with it because? If you wanna go down that route, the gilnean people also got their souls corrupted by the curse of the wolf. By your logic, Gilneas no longer belongs to them.
Lordaeron belongs to it's people
And guess who the forsaken are? The vorlons?
not the dead facsimiles who still
cling to what they lost.
I'd like to hear your explanation on how they "lost" lordaeron, because as far as I remember, they never did. They were alive, suddenly scourge arrived, they died, they were left guarding the city, they recovered their free will, now they inhabit the city. Was there a point where they DIDN'T had the city? I dont' think so.
And if other races of the alliance can cling to what they've clearly lost (Night Elves trying to be mages again, Worgens trying to be more human rather than fully embrace the beast, Dwarves trying to embrace their stone titanic origins to the point of invading land that isn't theirs, etc) why can't the forsaken do the same?
Ohh this will end well.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Look, We all know this will devolve into screaming at eachother and linking ever more obscure and meaningless quotes from ever more random sources until someone dies from rage.
lets just give up trying this stupid arguement after the first 50 times ok?
Post by
tarthur1
Well Lordplatypus, you haven't even quoted anything. You made a claim without backing it up in any way. Rankkor brings up incredibly good points while you seem to have nothing. This isn't a stupid argument: from where I stand, it's someone backing down from claims they had no backing for in the first place. I'm not here to argue, I just want to know the side of the argument that calls for Lordaeron to not belong to the undead, because Rankkor is accurate and you've made no true argument against it.
For the Undead having rights to the city, they were originally members of Lordaeron and stayed there (be it by choice or not) whereas the survivors fled to other Human settlements. The survivors gave up Lordaeron as a loss to the scourge, and now that it's under control by the Horde with the scourge run out of the city, the Humans want to come back? That's like giving up a toy when it's broken, and then stealing it back when your younger brother fixes it. Lordaeron was left by the Alliance and they have no rights to reclaim it just because it's no longer taken over by the scourge. The only way the Alliance could do so is through an all out war against the undead to conquer the city, CONQUER being the operative term.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Whelp, there's how many things wrong with that line?
The first part, i have to note is, the operative word,
undead
. They already lived their lives, they were resting in peace, when either Slyvanna's Vrykul or Artha's Necromancers dragged them out of their graves and told them to hurt people.
The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. (Lich stuff here)
Their souls are barely even attached, as the death knights can attest, it is a horrible experience, slyvannas herself hates it, and as we've seen, becoming forsaken notably changes the personality of most victims, with only a few strong-willed forsaken (Leonid Barthomew and Judkins come to mind).
Flee Lordaeron?
Have you heard of a certain backstabbed hero known as Grand Marshal Lord Othmar Garithos?
Slyvannas used him as a way of beating the dreadlords because she couldn't by herself. Then stabbed him in the back.
From a strictly political standpoint, the forsaken are at best an occupation. from a moral standpoint, the forsaken shouldn't even exist. From a Religous standpoint (ie. the light) the forskane are as unholy as they come.
Now then,
Please
do not make us have this conversation again.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually, from a political stand point: They are the rightful holders of the land. After all, there is no law in Azeroth saying that ownership ends upon death.
And with the few remaining survivors of Lordaeron scattered, they really don't have the numbers to claim the lands back. The number of undead Lordaerons vastly outnumber the living ones.
Post by
tarthur1
Whelp, there's how many things wrong with that line?
The first part, i have to note is, the operative word,
undead
. They already lived their lives, they were resting in peace, when either Slyvanna's Vrykul or Artha's Necromancers dragged them out of their graves and told them to hurt people.
The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. (Lich stuff here)
Their souls are barely even attached, as the death knights can attest, it is a horrible experience, slyvannas herself hates it, and as we've seen, becoming forsaken notably changes the personality of most victims, with only a few strong-willed forsaken (Leonid Barthomew and Judkins come to mind).
Flee Lordaeron?
Have you heard of a certain backstabbed hero known as Grand Marshal Lord Othmar Garithos?
Slyvannas used him as a way of beating the dreadlords because she couldn't by herself. Then stabbed him in the back.
From a strictly political standpoint, the forsaken are at best an occupation. from a moral standpoint, the forsaken shouldn't even exist. From a Religous standpoint (ie. the light) the forskane are as unholy as they come.
Now then,
Please
do not make us have this conversation again.
THANK YOU. This is what I needed. Not all of us have been through this conversation, so the things you said are new to me. I'm still not in agreement about the soul things because I almost feel like that's a near-religious argument, but regardless, consider the issue dropped from my standpoint (can't speak on the account of others). Again, I really do appreciate your explanation.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Your welcome, Be warned about trying to start this conversation, it's a very touchy point to many people (Myself for example).
The reason of the "Souls" point, is that the "Soul" or "Spirit" is what the sentience in warcraft is based on.. If it's not properly connected, I'd have to say that in case of the forsaken, this combined with their hunger of living flesh, would imply they are not the same "Person" in a very literal sense.
It's more like a feral worgen then the ones you know. Ivar bloodfang would not have been like that before he contacted the worgen curse, but genn greymane and your player character are both the same people as they used to be.
Post by
Adamsm
your player character are both the same people as they used to be.Mine wasn't; even after taking the Potion, she still had to fight with the feral aspect of herself that wanted to break free, and she was a druid to boot.
Also, there are undead such as Meryl Felstorm, or the ones who broke free of the Forsaken; shows they still have control of their 'souls' even after the revival.
Post by
Behelich
Othmar Garithos was not exactly a hero. If anything, his mistakes are the reason we are currently having the whole Sunreavers vs the rest of Kirin Tor mess. I'm not saying that excuses Sylvanas, of course, but we should not whitewash Garithos purely because he was one of the first casualties of the Forsaken genocide machine.
On topic, the Forsaken are first and foremost undead. Victims of a horrible curse at best, unnatural abominations that should not even exist at worst. Don't even get me started on the Blight, for example, this atrocity has no excuse and deploying it warrants an instant death sentence.
That is why Lordaeron should belong to the living. Does not really matter which ones - have the Argent Crusade cure the land, have the Elves of Quel'Thalas expand their empire, it is secondary to the fact that the undead should not possess any land at all. They have no future, plain and simple. Bolstering their ranks with new corpses is unquestionably wrong - necromancy is always necromancy. All the forsaken leave in their wake is misery and desolation.
Post by
Lordplatypus
One of the things slyvannas never shuts up about is how "Horrible" being undead is. But now, she's doing it to other people.
I never try to whitewash garithos, just remember, he isn't just "Bigot mcracist" he's also a hero, a badass, and the only hope for humans still left in lordaeron. he fought to the bitter end.
Forsaken genocide machine.
Technically, it's omnicide, They just want all the living to die, period.
Also, there are undead such as Meryl Felstorm
Yes because Meryl Felstorm is the exact same as the forsaken.
or the ones who broke free of the Forsaken; shows they still have control of their 'souls' even after the revival.
Some break free, but they always renounce the forsaken. it seems all the "unaffected" forsaken leave the organization. hence you can't defend them like that.
EDIT:
On topic, the Forsaken are first and foremost undead. Victims of a horrible curse at best, unnatural abominations that should not even exist at worst. Don't even get me started on the Blight, for example, this atrocity has no excuse and deploying it warrants an instant death sentence.
Indeed, they are the monster they fight, in more ways than race. Now with the original monster fallen, who is the monster?
Post by
4dehorde
he's also a hero
Garithos is a hero? The blood elves would like a word with you. Garithos may have tried to be a hero, but his racism really killed that. His own men didn't really have high opinions of him, at least the blood elves and the dwarves.
They just want all the living to die, period
I think while its clear the Forsaken want to destroy entire groups like the Scarlet Crusade (though you can't really blame them for that one) and maybe the Alliance, I think its a stretch to say they want to destroy all life. Most Forsaken may hold little love for the living, but I really can't see them trying to destroy the races of the Horde. Also, while the Forsaken are fighting the Alliance in the Plaguelands, they are leaving the Argent Crusade alone.
Yes I know Putress shouted "Death to the Scourge! And death to the living!" at the Wrathgate, but keep in mind he was a traitor in league with Varimathras. Sylvanas would have had his rotting hide had the Alliance not beaten the Horde to him.
Furthermore, I think its wrong to say the Forsaken shouldn't have Lordaeron simply because they are now undead. That is kind of like saying a lot of Gilneans don't deserve Gilneas now that they are worgen. One's race does not dictate whether or not they get territory.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Human law would likely state that a dead man's belongings go to his living children or something of the sort. In cases without anyone, they would be taken by the landlord, in this case, since everythign is dead, the population of survivor/refugees in stormwind, various parts of lordaeron still not razed to the ground for existing and theramoore have legal ownership.
The forsaken are either an occupation or just squatting.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Pretty sure inheritance according to will, or in other cases, property going to whoever the hell is further up the line or such on death is a common part of european law, which humans in WoW are based after.
Furthermore, the forsaken are by medical terms, "Dead" as their vital functions do not exist (They do not breath except to talk, their hearts don't beat yadda yadda yadda).
We do not know of lordaeron law, but I think the undead factoring into this is a
far
too complicated thing for us to discuss here, Take for example, the Salvation War (Google it if you don't know, it's a great series). Shows us that if the dead could come back, even modern law would fall appart.
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