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Off healing really that big a deal?
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Post by
Lordplatypus
Really? Yes i know mages can pretty much instaheal with evocation at a caliber that makes hybrids look sad, but that's GC's favorite class and has been OP since day 1.
The problem here is that as every single time, it's a thinly veiled Ret nerf, Retladins have been putting up with the worst nerfs in the entire game, such as removing last word, making WoG a spamfest, forcing every other off healer to be OP, and thus then blank nerf then with ret.
Post by
Neffi
Really? Yes i know mages can pretty much instaheal with evocation at a caliber that makes hybrids look sad
Are you expecting such an obvious hyperbole to be taken seriously? Or do you just have no idea how this heal happens?
Evocation baseline = 2 minute cooldown. Most of the heal happens over a long duration, making it easy to mitigate nearly all of the heal by interrupts or CCs. Not to mention a 2 minute cooldown is nothing abnormal for a defensive spell.
Evocation with Invocation = 10 second cooldown, but the heal only happens
after a full successful cast
so the mage gets no heal at all unless he's allows to freecast the full 6 seconds and complete it without getting interrupted.
If you're allowing
any
casting class to freecast without attempting to interrupt them, you deserve to get totally smashed. Complaining about one of the riskiest situations of freecasting in the game is just ridiculous.
but that's GC's favorite class and has been OP since day 1.
Ignoring that mages have had more than their share of issues, this is just the same thing people wanted to say about Kalgan and warriors for a while in BC. Then warriors were suddenly not so great at PvP and people totally forgot Kalgan and supposed favoritism.
If you seriously think a develop favors a class that strongly, it doesn't say much about somebody who continues to play a game they feel is so morally objectionable. Why haven't you quit?
Or better yet, go roll a mage and play a few games in their shoes. It's easy to call a class OP when you have no idea what it's like to play that class.
I propose the real problem is very easy to see. You're not so good at PvP. So in between getting blown up by mages (among everyone else) you read the forum and hear complaints about how X is a little too strong. Whining compounds whining and we get people like you blaming the developers for your own shortcomings.
The problem here is that as every single time, it's a thinly veiled Ret nerf, Retladins have been putting up with the worst nerfs in the entire game, such as removing last word, making WoG a spamfest, forcing every other off healer to be OP, and thus then blank nerf then with ret.
Mages have low passive defense. Paladins have high passive defense. Mages rely on control and CCs to stay alive. Comparing a mage's heal which is either at worst high-cooldown medium-risk and at best low-cooldown very-high-risk, to the state of paladins who are designed from
exactly the opposite
defensive side of the spectrum is useless. The classes are totally non-comparative.
---
For a game that has just seen a new expansion which brought new gameplay and fundamental changes to class mechanics, I'm baffled that people are surprised that things are a little out-of-whack the first patch.
Calm your &*!@#ing. If you feel so strongly that this game is such a travesty, quit. The 10-million-strong playerbase won't miss you. But maybe you should take the hint from the millions of other players who continue to play despite a few quirks that your overblown complaining is totally out of proportion with reality.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Another hyperdefensive mage, how suprising.
Evocation/Invoke lasts for 6 seconds, long enough to get it off while your oppoent is sheeped, or just can't interupt because said interupt is on cooldown since it was used on either sheep or frost nuke or some other abomination of a spell.
2: The only class that has ever truly dominated and/or been atleast Top tier throughout the game was mage, was mage ever non-viable for DPS? Unlike hunters, mages have no problems between specs, having either pyro or arcane be broken top of the meter, while frost dominates Pvp.
Mages have medium defense, great escaping/mobility absurdly high control Medium-high sustained and ungodly nuke. Paladin has High defense, no Mobility other than run fast, near nonexistant control that relies on already having uptime or needs to be talented to have a respectable cooldown and range and sacrfices their other control to get it. Medium sustained and medium-high burst.
See the so just comparing it to one class, i've produced a fact.
Want more?
Post by
964984
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
964984
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
964984
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lordplatypus
oh yeah almost forgot , if mage are really blizzard favorite class , then why a class that exist since day 1 still can't blink correectly ?
Blink can break just about everything, the teleportation was just tacked on to give it a supposed use.
Frost orb i don't even know about, but that still won't make up for A: Your all defending mage, while obivously playing it, and B: Mages have been overpowered too long and you won't say so.
Priest
Sheep
Post by
Neffi
Another hyperdefensive mage, how suprising.
I'm a rogue and feral druid. I play mage occasionally here and there (mostly on friends' accounts) but have never had my own top-level mage. I just know the game well. I've been PvPing for over 7 years now.
Evocation/Invoke lasts for 6 seconds, long enough to get it off while your oppoent is sheeped, or just can't interupt because said interupt is on cooldown since it was used on either sheep or frost nuke or some other abomination of a spell.
Lots of other things can be done during CC. That's the point of control. Every single class has crowd control, and a way of "fixing" the battle within its time limits. During a CC Rogues can Premed->Recup->Vanish; any hybrid can hard-heal; warlocks can micromanage health between drains and pet; and even everyone has bandages.
That's the point of crowd control, and everyone has it.
That's also why you too have crowd control. And that's why you have a trinket (and from the sound of it you're not timing the use of that trinket properly). And that's why you have other ways besides hard-interrupts to interrupt a spell (CCs, silences).
Not to mention you're promoting a logical fallacy that being able to sheep and then Evocation is an unfair heal,
since Polymorph also heals you
.
The only class that has ever truly dominated and/or been atleast Top tier throughout the game was mage, was mage ever non-viable for DPS? Unlike hunters, mages have no problems between specs, having either pyro or arcane be broken top of the meter, while frost dominates Pvp.
So I'm guessing you joined during Cataclysm when mages finally got a decent talent setup? Because before that, mages have historically been one of the most problematic PvP classes. They've had a long history of harsh times because of nonexistent defense. It wasn't until Cataclysm that mages were really competitive in PvP.
...
Mages are control-happy and always have been. During the days when mages could not compete in PvP whatsoever, it was still the case. Therefore it does not follow that their control is dominating.
Medium-high sustained and ungodly nuke.
This however is one key issue right now. Their burst setup is just quirky enough that they have an unfair advantage right now. The developers realize this, and nerfs are being put in place (for 5.1) to cancel precisely the type of chain burst that you've probably been the victim of.
Paladin has High defense, no Mobility other than run fast, near nonexistant control that relies on already having uptime or needs to be talented to have a respectable cooldown and range and sacrfices their other control to get it.
If you feel paladins are in a bad place right now, the correct way to approach this matter would be providing constructive feedback as to what's wrong with paladins and how it can be fixed. But you did not do that. Instead, you complained about a class that is by definition your hard-counter: a kiting control freak. Mages are supposed to have an edge over paladins. It's a simple rock-paper-scissor setup that has been working well for over 7 years now.
See the so just comparing it to one class, i've produced a fact.
This really makes me cringe. Let me get technical here. A fact is an event or a property that has been directly observed. Eg, it's a fact that the sky is blue. It's a fact that evolution occurs. It's a fact that the sun is white. It's a fact that Abe Lincoln was assassinated.
What you've presented is an inference, which is totally different from a fact. Also, you're cherry-picking precisely the information which fits your case and ignoring everything else about the game itself, making your presentation,
in fact
a conjecture.
Want more?
Not really. I suggest you:
Play the game for more than one PvP season.
Get a better grip on the nature of rock-paper-scissor dynamics in WoW's PvP.
Get a better grip on the dynamics of macro- and micro-roles that classes are designed around.
Come to the realization that you're not an expert at WoW.
Come to the obvious realization that WoW is going to be imbalanced immediately following an overhaul of fundamental mechanics, and that balance takes time to achieve.
Pass freshman-year English class and understand semantics and context before trying to argue with an authoritative tone.
Post by
Lordplatypus
If you feel paladins are in a bad place right now, the correct way to approach this matter would be providing constructive feedback as to what's wrong with paladins and how it can be fixed. But you did not do that. Instead, you complained about a class that is by definition your hard-counter: a kiting control freak. Mages are supposed to have an edge over paladins. It's a simple rock-paper-scissor setup that has been working well for over 7 years now.
The rock paper scissors line again huh? There is no scissors just melee classes (Rock) and cloth classes (Paper). Period.
I'd like to be able to do something that closes the gap better, and while PoJ has been buffed, it's either PoJ
or
Long arm now, Back then just about every paladin had both. Two HoF is nice. However using WoG for dps means sacrficing the most useful healing spec ability for off-healing, Eternal flame. hence still need uptime.
So I'm guessing you joined during Cataclysm when mages finally got a decent talent setup? Because before that, mages have historically been one of the most problematic PvP classes. They've had a long history of harsh times because of nonexistent defense. It wasn't until Cataclysm that mages were really competitive in PvP.
Nonexistant defense is exactly what mage defense SHOULD be. If a paladin, warrior or death knight manages to close in and disable you, you should by all means be dead meat, but now with resil, mages can last longer, and i've been getting to suggesting that plate should have increased resil, mail stay as is, leather stay as is, and cloth resil be nerfed.
Not to mention you're promoting a logical fallacy that being able to sheep and then Evocation is an unfair heal, since Polymorph also heals you.
Most melee classes can heal just fine, so a 50/50 deal is rather broken when only one half of the deal gets to call when, has the only damage dealing capacity and so on.
Mages are control-happy and always have been. During the days when mages could not compete in PvP whatsoever, it was still the case. Therefore it does not follow that their control is dominating.
Control is a concept that dominates pvp, a class that specializes in control is henceforth OP.
Post by
jefflovealex
Mages have excessive control elements to make up for the fact, if ice barrier goes down and they have no iceblock, they can and are 5 hitted by any burst class.
If you're playing a retadin against mages and losing , with the us hand of freedom, pvp trinket and bubble, you're doing something seriously wrong.
Post by
455621
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Neffi
You haven't played WoW for long, right?
Come to think of it, every single class has had a period where they totally dominated in PvP. Likewise every single class has had a period where they were totally noncompetitive. Precisely the sentiments the OP is portraying here can and have repurposed for every other class at some point.
Post by
Dilbo
Mages drop fast without their shield...which means that you will want someone who can dispel their buffs with you if your class cannot. If you cannot dispel their shields yourself, you are going to find that they are difficult to kill quickly enough before they kill you.
I play as an enhancement shaman and I have purge glyphed to remove 2 buffs per GCD. I absolutely wreck mages of any spec, moreso now than I did in cata, since frost mages can no longer root with CoC.
If you're running RBGs or 3s, don't underestimate the value of having a skilled enhancement shaman on your team. Their ability to deliver respectable sustained and burst damage combined with relentless dispelling spells doom for most caster classes.
With all the class homogenization going on it's surprising that enh. shaman has such effective team synergy - but at the same time it's disappointing that many people aren't even aware of it.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Mages have excessive control elements to make up for the fact, if ice barrier goes down and they have no iceblock, they can and are 5 hitted by any burst class.
If you're playing a retadin against mages and losing , with the us hand of freedom, pvp trinket and bubble, you're doing something seriously wrong.
They drop as fast as a feather and theres literally now way to stay on them long enough.
With all the class homogenization going on it's surprising that enh. shaman has such effective team synergy - but at the same time it's disappointing that many people aren't even aware of it.
Each class still brings alot to the table, and i love it whenever one of those mages has their OP shields taken off, OPEN SEASON BOYS! GET YOUR PAINSTICKS!
Come to think of it, every single class has had a period where they totally dominated in PvP. Likewise every single class has had a period where they were totally noncompetitive. Precisely the sentiments the OP is portraying here can and have repurposed for every other class at some point.
Lets take a look here
Warrior-Mmmmnope
Paladin-Bad Glitch
Hunter-Instakills with no weakenss, seems legit.
Rogue-Mechanics weren't set up right in WoW at that time
Mage-GOD MODE
Death Knight-When it's a gimmick class, it's OP, sorta extra pressure to buy expac no?
Lock-DEATHCOIL GOD MODE
Monk-Not sure yet but touch of death is rather blatant in being OP
Priest-uhhhh when? heals are always OP but that can't be put on priests
Shaman-Again, when? Other than Wunderstorm that is
Druid-Excessive bleeds and freespeed, add in being a tank with the same spec, obivous fixed in mists for the most part, but the harder to interupt heals are still an issue.
Post by
cloudp
Come to think of it, every single class has had a period where they totally dominated in PvP. Likewise every single class has had a period where they were totally noncompetitive. Precisely the sentiments the OP is portraying here can and have repurposed for every other class at some point.
Lets take a look here
Warrior-Mmmmnope
Season 4 Resto+Warrior.
Season 8 Dispellcleave (Warrior with 2 healers, still able to dish enough damage to be viable in 3v3).
Paladin-Bad Glitch
Depends on spec.
Season 5 - Holy FREAKING Unholy comps, absolute terror domination.
Season 5 - Ret burst.
Hunter-Instakills with no weakenss, seems legit.
That... proves his point, it does not counter it. Hunters' Season being the current one.
Rogue-Mechanics weren't set up right in WoW at that time
They have consistently been tremendous. Double rogue was even a fair team comp during some point in TBC (Dual Warglaive rogue).
Mage-GOD MODE
Funny, because outside PoM Pyro mages (during Vanilla, meaning chaos), I do not recall a season during which mages showed absolute retarded dominance.
Death Knight-When it's a gimmick class, it's OP, sorta extra pressure to buy expac no?
That means they were overpowered during Season 5... once again, proving his point, not denying it.
Lock-DEATHCOIL GOD MODE
Warlocks found a sweet season in Season 2 (or 1?) where DoTs ignored resillience. Affliction/Shadow was terrifying. As during TBC they were hard countered very heavilly by Rogues (A lot of this was on Will of the Forsaken's old form), I'm not sure there was a period they were considered ultra OP.
Monk-Not sure yet but touch of death is rather blatant in being OP
Too soon to tell, I agree there.
Priest-uhhhh when? heals are always OP but that can't be put on priests
Priests, outside AfflicShadow in season 2, were very powerful or very weak, but I don't recall an exact SUPER OP season for them either.
Shaman-Again, when? Other than Wunderstorm that is
Beastcleave, season 6.
Druid-Excessive bleeds and freespeed, add in being a tank with the same spec, obivous fixed in mists for the most part, but the harder to interupt heals are still an issue.
Season 4 Trees being close to unkillable.
And my knowledge is fairilly limited. I was out of the loop for Cataclysm's entire seasons, and I started playing with Season 3 well going underway, and stopped for seasons 6 and 7. I have only superficial knowledge of the seasons I did not play. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable would be able to pinpoint an OP season for almost any spec.
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